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Chapter 132: Robin Dunbar on nullifying negativity with numbered natural networks

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Back in Chapter 101 of 3 Books we had a magical, eve-of-Everything-Everywhere-All-At-Once-coming-out moment-in-time conversation with creative super-geniuses Daniels — who are Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert. We were discussing the fascinating book Sex At Dawn and our conversation led to discussing Dunbar’s Number.

Dunbar’s Number! Have you heard of Dunbar’s Number? It’s 150! That’s the cognitive limit on the number of social relationships we can have. We, as in humans. Limit, as in our brains can’t handle anymore. The number was coined, of course, by Oxford Emeritus Professor, Anthropologist, Evolutionary Psychologist, and General All-Round Super-Genius Robin, yes you guessed it, Dunbar. “There are only eight people with numbers named after them,” Robin says, with a grin. “And the other seven people are dead.” (Shoutout to Avogadro!)

Now: 150 is one in a series of numbers. More intimately: We have 15 ‘shoulders to cry on friends’, those who’d drop everything to help us or for whom we’d drop everything to help. And our cognitively limited brains can handle 500 ‘acquaintances’ and even 5000 ‘total faces.’ But 150? That’s the limit for ‘friends’. No wonder 150 is the average wedding size, it’s the average number of total people who 'see your Christmas card’, and it’s even the average size of 8000-year-old Middle East villages and 1000-year-old English countryside villages.

Once you start seeing this number — it’s hard to stop. But: Why is it important? Well, because friendships, the trust between all of us, it’s … at an all-time low. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy (our guest in Chapter 66!) has declared a ‘loneliness’ epidemic with 1 in 2 adults feeling alone now — higher than ever before in history. (Doesn’t sound too bad till you realize loneliness is worse for our health than smoking 15 cigarettes a day!) Meanwhile, the Harvard Adult Development Study, the longest study ever on happiness, says that friendship and community is the number one source of happiness.

So enter: Robin Dunbar! Wise, cheery, and ever-eloquent, he’s got a massive mind capable of distilling more than five decades of scientific work — and 16 published books including How Religion Evolved, How Many Friends Does One Person Need?, and Friends — into simple observations, prophecies, and advice on how we can all live richer, more fulfilling lives.

I found this an astoundingly nutritious conversation and we talk about: how to raise children, what HR departments should be doing, what you’re doing wrong when you go to the gym, why religion ‘dies during times of peace and revives during times of war’, the death and finding of our deep community, Robin’s 3 most formative books, and much, much, much more...

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 132 now...

Chapter 132: Robin Dunbar on nullifying negativity with numbered natural networks

CONNECT with Robin Dunbar

Robin’s 3 Books

  • First book (22:53)

  • Second book (1:12:47)

  • Third book (2:02:40)

Quotes

  • “Failure in relationships is almost always because of trust. One person has done something that has really broken trust. Sometimes its lots of little breakages along the way, which finally add up to enough’s enough.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “The great problem is that, if trust is lost, everything starts to fragment socially into lots of little ingroups.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “There are two major social skills that are very important in the context of trust. One is the ability to understand what other people are thinking, to see why they behaved in the way they did. And secondly, the capacity to inhibit what psychologists refer to as prepotent responses. You have to be able to suppress your selfish desire to help yourself to the biggest slice of cake on the plate in order to ensure that everybody else gets a bit of cake. If you don’t do that, social life is not going to be possible.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “The big problem you have with your friendships and your relationships, even your family relationships, is when you don't see somebody for a long period of time, the quality of that relationship just decays slowly but surely, and unavoidably.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “And you are never going to understand another culture or another ethnic group if you don't eat with them. You have to sit down and eat with them and live with them, as it were.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “There was a study of the effects done on people working together in an office that went out, eating together, and this actually benefits the kind of relationships within the organization. People weren’t so suspicious of each other from different departments.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “We have become less community-minded to a large extent because of two major factors. One is the television, and more recently, social media. The other is cheap alcohol and cheap food from supermarkets. So instead of going out to your local cafe, bar, or club in order to have a pleasant evening talking to different people, meeting new people who you’ve never met before, we instead sit in front of the television with a TV supper and a cheap beer.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “Religion dies during times of peace and revives during times of war.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “I think there are far too many books of advice on child rearing. Probably the best thing you can do is throw them in the trash can and just relax and take life as it comes. We’re designed by evolution to do these things.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “The mystical stance is what I call this sense of the unknowable that you encounter inside your mind through the use of mind-altering drugs or the practices of religion.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “The most important function HR departments could serve is to completely rethink what they do and become the social engineers of the company, not the social police.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

  • “When you go to the gym, workout, or go for a jog, instead of putting your headphones on, take your headphones off so that you can talk to the person on the machine next to you. Go jogging with a group, with a friend. If you do these physical activities in synchrony with each other, it builds up this sense of camaraderie. You get to be fit and build friendships without having to do too much extra.” — Robin Dunbar | 3 Books Podcast

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Chapter 131: J. Drew Lanham on breaking boundaries to become better birdwatchers

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Buckle up! We are heading down to the fields of Clemson, South Carolina!

I got an email from 3 Booker Rumble D. back in February which said “Neil, I have a guest suggestion for you. J Drew Lanham is a 2022 MacArthur fellow and an American ornithologist. I loved his book and would love to hear you interview him (maybe while you guys go birding?)” Intrigued, I looked him up and discovered I … sort of already knew him? I had read and loved his wonderfully thoughtful and nuanced essay last year called "What Do We Do About John James Audubon?" and his viral YouTube clip called "Rules for the Black Birdwatcher". (“You’re gonna need at least two pieces of ID. And never wear a hoodie. Ever.”)

So I bought Drew’s memoir The Home Place and found it completely entrancing. His writing is poetry — vivid, transportive, meditative. After that, I reached out to Drew and we set a time to make the 10-hour haul down to Clemson farm country, wake up at the crack of dawn, and then get picked up by Drew in his Dodge Ram to spend a morning together — birdwatching.

J. Drew Lanham is a naturalist, birdwatcher, hunter-conservationist, MacArthur 'Genius' Grant-winning distinguished professor. He is a meditative, philosophical, nature- and wild-loving soul who has deeply considered our long relationship with the natural world and is never afraid to confront harsh truths. “European Starlings are a dark-plumaged being brought over the Atlantic for the services of others,” Drew says at one point. “Hmmm, where have I heard that before?”

You’ll be riding in the middle seat of the truck, getting out with us between fence posts and grassy meadows, hearing Blue Grosbeaks, Eastern Meadowlarks, and Red-Shouldered Hawks, and listening to Drew’s endlessly wise observations about everything from South Carolina’s slavery past, why there’s blood in tofu, what your birdwatching ‘starter kit’ should look like, how to observe a land ethic, how we might behave differently if Chicken Nuggets blinked at us, formative books (of course!), and much, much more. “You can’t see everything at once,” Drew reminds us. “So learn to see the everything in one.”

With birds serving as a metaphor for everything in life I think you’ll love this slow, soul-fueling, wisdom-stuffed conversation with Professor J. Drew Lanham. I left his truck that morning thinking “I want to be more like Drew.” I think you’ll feel the same way.

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 131 now...

Chapter 131: J. Drew Lanham on breaking boundaries to become better birdwatchers

CONNECT WITH J. Drew

J. Drew’s 3 Books

  • First book (46:10)

  • Second book (1:24:30)

  • Third book (2:01:40)

Quotes

  • "Conservation means taking some and leaving some for later."

  • "4 out of 10 kids think bacon came from a plant. They didn’t know that a pig had to die for them to eat a slice of bacon. That’s disturbing."

  • "You can't see everything at once so try and see the everything in one."

  • "European Starlings are a bird that was brought here. A dark-plumaged being brought to this country for the service of others. Hmm, where have I heard that before?"

  • "Joy is the justice we give ourselves."

  • "We’ve objectified birds into oblivion. Birding is one of the most popular outdoor avocations in North America. They’ve become something to just count. We’re counting them as they dwindle but we’re not doing enough to stop that dwindling count."

  • "When we become experts at something, sometimes it leads us to believe that we have all the answers. And we hardly have any answers."

  • "Part of what I hope that people are able to do over time is take down the binoculars and see the broader view."

  • “We’ve been told that nature is 'out there.' But it’s really all around us. I’ve been in the heart of Manhattan and I look up and there’s a Peregrine Falcon.”

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The Best of 2023: Neil Pasricha rewinds and reflects on the richness of reading

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Another year around the sun!

It is the Winter Solstice which means it is time for our sixth annual "Best Of" episode of 3 Books. 3 Books began ​back in 2018​ with a simple goal of counting down the 1000 most formative books in the world ... 3 books at a time. We wanted this show to help all of us read more and read better and we wanted to do that by being different -- with a lunar-based schedule and a deep intention of being an ‘intrinsically-motivated journey’ with no ads, sponsors, commercials, or interruptions.

We started collecting ​values​ like: "No book shame, no book guilt", "Humans are the best algorithm", and "You are what you eat and you are what you read."

Over the years this journey has been a warm ray of sun in my life. I hope it’s felt the same for you.

My goal with the “Best Of” is to reflect on the year by picking a snippet from every Chapter and Bookmark that helps us pause and ponder.

You'll hear (or re-hear) wisdom from our chats with ​Steve Toltz​, ​Timothy Goodman​, ​Johann Hari​, ​Tank Sinatra​, ​Suzy Batiz​, ​Martellus Bennett​, ​Chefs Osama and Houssam​, ​Jully Black​, ​Lenore Skenazy​, ​Heather McGowan​, ​Sahil Bloom​, ​Ralph Nader​, and J. Drew Lanham (his interview is coming out on December 26th!!)

Thank you for sharing time with me and our incredible warm-hearted community of 3 Bookers around the world. I hope this (lengthy!) Best Of can keep you company on a long drive, late-night walk, or over some quiet moments through the holidays.

Let’s stop and reflect and then keep enjoying the ride.

The Best of 2023: Neil Pasricha rewinds and reflects on the richness of reading

 
 
 
 

Chapter 130: Ralph Nader on corporate crime creating classist chaos

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“Your airbag” by Ralph Nader. “Your seatbelt” by Ralph Nader. “Your cleaner air” by Ralph Nader. “Your safer food” by Ralph Nader. “Your lead protection when you get dental x-rays", “Your warning labels on cigarettes”, “Your right to know if you’re exposed to dangerous chemicals at your job”. By Ralph Nader, by Ralph Nader, by Ralph Nader. 

We slap names on everything! Bylines. Authorship! We see names on everything in our ego-oriented society with commercialization and profit maximization near its core. But Ralph’s name isn’t on any of these things. Could be! ​Maybe should be​! But when you’ve spent nearly seven decades — seven decades! — as a tireless consumer advocate, fighting to achieve protections for a healthier and safer society for all, well, maybe you don't focus on credit. You just focus on change.

“Dissent is the mother of ascent,” Ralph reminds us in ​Chapter 130 of 3 Books​, one of many calls-to-arms issued by the four-time Presidential candidate and author of the new book ​The Rebellious CEO​ to our fiery global community of book lovers, writers, makers, sellers ... and librarians.

And while Ralph’s not running for President in 2024 — “We have a two-party duopoly not a competitive democracy" — he’s still working, day after day, calling for change. Sure, he’s turning 90 in February, joining his two active nonagenarian sisters, but he doesn’t feel old. Why not? Because, according to Ralph, “The only true aging is the erosion of one’s ideals."

I was very excited to sit down with Ralph and learn from his plentiful experience, wisdom, and ideas. On lots of things! Including de-computerizing elementary schools, shifting from a warmaking to peacemaking society, adding safety to social media, his ingredients for cognitive longevity, his current views of the famed Bush-Gore 2000 presidential election where he was called a "spoiler", and, of course, his 3 most formative books.

In an era of blaring, dopamine-spiking news and social media overwhelm this longform conversation with a true master awoke and inflamed my spirit on so many things. I think it'll do the same for you.

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 130 now...

Chapter 130: Ralph Nader on corporate crime creating classist chaos

CONNECT WITH Ralph

Ralph’s 3 Books

  • First book (9:40)

  • Second book (29:20)

  • Third book (1:11:10)

Quotes

  • We can be great peacemakers. The great warmakers can turn into peacemakers. But that’s got to start with peace movements all over the country. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • Readers think and thinkers read. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • You don’t see kids on sidewalks playing anymore. They’re all inside looking at screens. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • The only true aging is the erosion of one’s ideals. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • Dissent is the mother of ascent. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • Abolish the Electoral College. It is totally atavistic. It was a big mistake by the founders. Nobody has ever voted for a presidential candidate in the United States. Because you vote for the electors, you don’t vote for the candidate. You vote for the electors who represent the candidate. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • Who is going to save a society that aspires to be democratic instead of autocratic or fascistic? The answer is the people. And it doesn’t take that many of them. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • The two parties thrive on divide and rule. That’s the way they raise money. And the press falls prey to it again and again. They don’t understand what their own polls show. These piteous ideologies don’t have as much meaning. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • Get off the screens and hold real books in your hands. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • There have been a lot of articles on bad CEOs, big companies, the cruel and avaricious wardens of the internet gulag. Facebook, Instagram, and Google, they’ve been sued in the European community for criminal anti-trust violations; there are lawsuits pending here. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • There are over 42 million Americans still paying student debt into their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, even 70s. What other country would launch their young generations into a lifetime of debt? There’s no other Western country that does this. It’s because people in our country are not organized, they’ve turned inward, and they spend a lot of time fighting each other ideologically. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • All empires devour themselves. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

  • People, regardless of their political persuasions, when they are confronted by injustice, they all bleed the same color. | Ralph Nader #3bookspodcast

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Bookmark: Leslie Richardson on practicing peaceful parenting

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Hey everyone,
​
Today I'm putting out a special Bookmark episode of 3 Books featuring my incredible wife ​Leslie Richardson​. If you've been listening to 3 Books for a while you've heard Leslie interviewing guests like ​Brené Brown​, ​Kristen Neff​, and ​Rebecca the Sex Therapist​. And, of course, I started the show by interviewing her way back in ​Chapter 1​. But this time she takes center stage on a topic she's deeply passionate about: parenting. And, specifically here, how to nurture self-compassion as a parent when riding the waves through challenging times.

This recent interview Leslie did with Dajana Yoakley at the Self-Compassionate Parenting Summit was going viral on my family group texts and I knew I had to share it with you. Thank you to Dajana (delightinparenting.com) for letting us share this wonderful conversation touching topics like: the antidote to shame, the importance of guilt and regret, the 5 'R's' of good Repair, what to promise your child, growing your self-compassion muscle, resources for parents who want to build empathy, how to water the flowers not the weeds, how to help fighting siblings, practical strategies to process emotion as a parent, and much, much more...

I am very lucky to learn from Leslie on a daily basis. She's spent years as a community leader, inner-city public school teacher, trained parenting coach, and, of course, mother of our four children. Whether you're a new parent, old parent, or somewhere in between, I know you'll find this conversation as helpful, useful, and full of wisdom as I did. There are so many lessons in here I am still trying to learn. This is a conversation to help us all walk intentionally down the parenting path.

Bookmark: Leslie Richardson on practicing peaceful parenting

CONNECT WITH Leslie

Quotes

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Chapter 129: Sahil Bloom freezes at 4am to find fortune and finish first

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I flew down to New York City and sat in a plush purple corner booth at the pricey and exclusive ​Core Club​ in midtown Manhattan. ​Sahil Bloom​ is the youngest member they have because, as he says, "If you get into the right rooms, good things start to happen." Sahil Bloom is a fascinating, unconventional, maniacally disciplined, wisdom-distilling writer, thinker, and investor—with a goal of motivating a billion people to live their best lives as a kind of ​Tim Ferriss​ or ​Robin Sharma​ for the next generation.

He grew up with a Harvard dad, Princeton mom, and Yale sister—but was coasting by in school and the resident jock. "My dad would come home and play catch before going back to work every night." His dad is ​David E. Bloom​, one of the world's most-renowned social scientists, who would take Sahil on business-class flights as a kid. "I would eat ice cream and watch movies but I watched my dad working on the speech he was delivering the next morning for the entire 12 hours."

Do we all need to become manically disciplined to compete in the world today? What are the benefits and what are the costs of winding ourselves up to our highest and fullest potential? And how do we measure that? The sun was setting out the window, servers setting up clinking cutlery on the tables next to us, as we drank non-alcoholic cocktails and talked: Parkinson's Law, 4am cold plunges, phone-free walks, impacting a billion lives, Dunkin Donuts, 5am writing routines, posting your kids faces online, Tim Cook, how to get a giant book deal, chasing opportunity vs energy, and, of course, Sahil Bloom's 3 most formative books... 3 Books remains ad-free, sponsor-free, commercial-free, and interruption-free. The best way you can support the show is just by listening and sharing it with family and friends. Listen directly at ​3books.co​, or by typing in "3 Books" into ​Apple Podcasts or Spotify​.

A massive thank you to Sahil Bloom for sharing his vulnerability, so many endless tools, and all that incredible wisdom. This is a conversation that has personally inspired and changed habits in my life. I hope it does the same for you.

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 129 now...

Chapter 129: Sahil Bloom freezes at 4am to find fortune and finish first

CONNECT WITH Sahil

Sahil’s 3 Books

  • First book (37:15)

  • Second book (1:37:42)

  • Third book (2:01:18)

Quotes

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Chapter 128: Heather McGowan listens to lessons from the Lakota and Legacy of Luna

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I started 3 Books back in 2018.

I didn't fully appreciate how big, wide, and deep the core question of this 22-year conversation was at the beginning. "What are your 3 most formative books?" Sounds simple! But as you trace back which books inspired ideals, ignited passions, altered values, slingshotted directions...well, it turns out there's always a lot there.

That was definitely the case as I recorded Chapter 128 of 3 Books in a Washington DC hotel room overlooking the Potomac with writer, designer, and speaker Heather McGowan. Heather is a big thinker focused on the "future of work" and she has elegantly stitched her business and industrial design backgrounds along with some fascinating experiences into two bestselling books called 'The Adaptation Advantage' and 'The Empathy Advantage.' She has spoken at the World Economic Forum, TEDx, and SXSW, has written for Forbes and Harvard Business Review, and is an advisor to the Business Higher Education Forum and Innovate+Educate.

We talk why empathy is essential for leaders, how we rebuild trust, how we can learn to let go, what is a "belligerent optimist", Heather's 3 most formative books, and much, much more...

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 128 now...

Chapter 128: Heather McGowan listens to lessons from the Lakota and Legacy of Luna

 
 
 
 

Chapter 127: Lenore Skenazy on killing coddling to create capable kids

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Early episodes of Sesame Street from the late 1960s show five-year-olds walking streets alone, talking to strangers, and playing on vacant lots, but when those episodes were released on DVD years later a warning was added at the beginning saying “The following is intended for adult viewing only and may not be suitable for young viewers.”

I read about this in ‘Stolen Focus’, the massive bestseller by Johann Hari, our guest in Chapter 121. Johann went on in his book to discuss how ‘the confinement of our children’ is contributing to our plummeting ability to focus and he brought the idea to light wonderfully in his book by spotlighting the activism of Lenore Skenazy.

Lenore Skenazy is a Jackson Heights, New York mom of two who wrote a 2008 column for The New York Sun titled ‘Why I Let My 9-Year-Old Ride The Subway Alone.’ The article set off a huge media firestorm where Lenore was dubbed “America’s Worst Mom.” Undeterred, Lenore went on to coin the phrase “free-range kids”, write a bestselling book by the same name, and then five years ago co-founded a non-profit called ‘Let Grow’ which aims to give kids back the developmentally crucial ‘vitamin’ our culture has removed from childhood: independence!

Before her current work, Lenore wrote for The New York Daily News, New York Sun, and Mad Magazine (!). She has degrees from Yale and Columbia and is on the front lines of movements to bring back trust, independence, and free play in our children. She has created The Let Grow Project which partners with schools to give students the simple homework assignment to “Go home and do something new, on your own.” She created ‘Take Our Children to the Park & Leave Them There Day’ as a day for children to learn how to play without constant supervision. And Let Grow, the organization she co-founded with Jonathan Haidt (our guest in Chapter 103), Dr. Peter Gray, and Daniel Shuchman, has been helping to draft and sponsor 'free-range kid' legislation supporting reasonable child independence. To date, they have helped pass laws in eight states.

Join us as we discuss: recess, preventing anxiety in kids, the problem with child protective services, getting attention in activism today, the importance of fun, and, of course, Lenore's three most formative books...

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 127 now...

Chapter 127: Lenore Skenazy on killing coddling to create capable kids

 
 
 
 

Chapter 126: Jully Black on anthem alterations and attitude absolutions

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I’ve been lucky enough to be invited onto ‘The Social’ a few times. Do you know the show? It’s like ‘The View’, but Canadian, with four dynamic hosts sharing fast-paced opinions in a raucous, bombastic, high-energy exchange. Producers hand you the topics of the day about 30 minutes before you go on — formed by that morning’s early headlines — and then it’s time to form an opinion and get ready to, no big deal, share it live with millions of people a few minutes later. Definitely one of the most challenging jobs I’ve ever had and I can’t tell you how much I admire people like Melissa Grelo, Cynthia Loyst, Lainey Lui, and Jess Allen, who do it day after day.

Since I’m guest-hosting it’s usually me onstage with three women — while one’s away — and we end up having full-on laugh attacks like this one. Well, one day, early in the pandemic, during the “live from everybody’s basement” era, I showed up ready to go on and discovered I was one of *two* guest hosts. The other was Jully Black! Canada’s R&B Queen. I’d heard of her but when the camera started rolling I fell in love. She was dynamic, bombastic, full of love, full of energy, and in the virtual green room after the show I invited her on 3 Books. (I knew she was a book lover because she’d been on Canada Reads — “the Survivor of Books” — a couple years before.)

Well, after a few years of planning, we finally pulled off our long-awaited live and in-person recording of 3 Books — up in Markham, Ontario, an hour north of Toronto — inside the 24-hour, 365-day-a-year, 68,000-square foot sauna and bath house Go Place. I had never been but Jully was a regular so we put on our checkerboard paper shorts and shirts and lounged on a couple curvy chairs before hitting record (and before hitting the hot and cold rooms afterwards.)

I think you’ll find this as fascinating a conversation as I did. Jully is a true icon — named one of ‘The 25 Greatest Canadian Singers Ever’ (CBC Music) with multiple singles reaching Top 10 pop, R&B, and dance music charts. She has sung for the Queen of England, she’s been inducted into Canada’s Walk of Fame, and, as you’ll hear, she took the bold stance of changing the words to Canada’s National Anthem on its largest global stage. Her activism wins praise, plaudits, and, yes, some poo-pooing, but if you know Jully — and you will soon if you don’t! — she takes it all in stride and then she manifests another great day. She’s somebody who is seemingly always vibrating on another level.

Jully has been in the game for three decades, scoring her first record deal as a teenager, and collaborating with endless legends like Nas, Choclair, and Destiny’s Child. She’s an activist, award-winning musical theater star, community organizer, and much, much more. In this conversation Jully shares secrets of artistic longevity, thoughts behind her decision to change the lyrics of ‘O Canada’ at the NBA All-Star game, her definition of allyship, how we learn to forgive ourselves, what a ‘blanket ceremony’ is, how we navigate the death of our parents, her 3 most formative books (of course), and much, much more…

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 126 now…

Chapter 126: Jully Black on anthem alterations and attitude absolutions

 
 
 
 

Chapter 125: Two Syrian Chefs share sheep and shawarma shopkeeping shenanigans

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“All the time focus on the positive things. Not the negative things. Then the karma, it will come, it will reflect to you.”

Meet Chef Osama Harwash and Chef Houssam Harwash. Two brothers who came to Canada as Syrian refugees and rented a food stall to begin crafting traditional recipes learned from four generations of Syrian chefs. Listen as they share lessons learned from their sheep-farming great-grandfather at the fall of the Ottoman Empire and then tell us how mint and cardamom help make the perfect lemonade for sweltering Torontonians.

I was riding past a tight row of graffiti-covered food stalls on an absolutely scorching day in downtown Toronto when I spotted these two gregarious brothers wedged into a tiny four-foot by four-foot booth smiling, wishing “happy days to their brothers and sisters” while making them chicken shawarmas, beef kofta plates, and grape leaves for a non-stop line of faithful fans. A 4.9 rating with over 500 reviews on Google since they opened doesn’t lie.

But what makes them tick?

“The most important thing in Toronto is community,” Osama says “We love Toronto. And we want to support our community So we make more food to make more people happy.”

Maybe it's as simple as that! Let’s take a break from the news flow, the omnipresent digital tide, to come down to the sidewalk to hang out with me, Osama, and Houssam as we discuss growing up with six brothers in Damascus, 800-year-old houses, the perfect drink for a good sleep, lessons from ancient Arabic philosophy, the joys of taking time to slowly craft perfect meals with love, and, yes, of course, their 3 most formative books.

It was a treat hanging out with Chefs Houssam and Osama Harwash at their wonderful Chef Harwash food stall at 707 Dundas St W (at Bathurst and Dundas) in downtown Toronto.

Let’s flip the page into Chapter 125 now…

Chapter 125: Two Syrian Chefs share sheep and shawarma shopkeeping shenanigans

 
 
 
 

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